The Impact of Podcasts with Arielle Nissenblatt

Welcome to the first chat of the newsletter! I sat down with Arielle Nissenblatt who is now Community Marketing Manager at Descript. (This interview was conducted prior to Squadcast being acquired by Descript, though.) We talked about freelancing, the impact podcasts have had on us, the state of the podcast industry, and more. It was a ton of fun. I considered cutting this down a bit, but ended up just editing for clarity because Arielle had a lot of great things to say. Hope you enjoy!

Deanna: So I figure we can just kind of jump right in and start with what initially got you into podcasts, because I know for me, it was something that happened totally by accident. I was a music industry major. And I was like, so dead set on never having to work in Logic or Pro Tools. I was doing like the music business track. And now I live in Logic and Pro Tools for podcasts.

Arielle: Wow. I got into podcasts first as a listener, completely had no interest at first in creating at all. I just wanted to help people discover podcasts and find more podcasts myself, and then some time went on and I realized that there are so many podcasts out there, I could never possibly listen to all of them, so maybe something I could do to kind of insert myself into the industry would be to start a recommendation newsletter.

So I started that in 2017 as a way of having a job, because I didn't think that there were jobs. Or listeners per se, unless you're a curator. So I started a curation newsletter and then everything kind of blossomed from there.

Deanna: Yeah. And for me, it was one of those things where I was like, huh, I actually enjoy this more than I anticipated and it wasn't necessarily that I wanted to get into editing per se, but I had a friend approach me and was like, “Hey, do you want to start this music podcast?” And because I was a music industry major, it kind of made sense that that would be the first podcast I would start and that was back in 2015 that sounds so long ago.

I think it's partially because the last few years have felt like a whole decade. But for you, how did you end up making that transition from you know listener to curator to working in the industry because now you are Head of Community and Content at Squadcast.

Arielle: Yeah, so when I started this recommendation newsletter in 2017, I did it because I really wanted to work in podcasting, but I was having trouble finding a job that would take somebody with zero experience. I, in college studied geography, so truly nothing to do with audio. I didn't, you know, have a college radio station like a lot of people do as a foot in the door.

So I really was just coming at it from the listener point of view. And I really prided myself on being aware of what was out there and what was trending and who is newly entering the space and what's the impact of this type of podcast and this type of listener on the creator economy for podcasts on the whole.

And then I really wanted to get paid to be doing anything in the podcast space. So I applied to everything. I applied for internships. I applied for apprenticeships. I applied for like front desk jobs. I applied for like anything in any podcast related company. I was living in Los Angeles at the time.
And I eventually just like started doing admin work for a few.

And then I continued to run the newsletter on the side so that I could say that I was working in the podcast space, right? So I was each week working with people who were listening to podcasts, sometimes podcasters themselves, asking them to curate lists for me. And that allowed me to have meetings sometimes, have phone calls, have coffee dates sometimes with podcast people in LA and over time that blossomed into more and more connections and you know, it's not like the rest is history.

There was a lot of work involved, but the newsletter that I still run to this day definitely helped kind of cement me or place me in a place where I could. Have these conversations. I reached out to the founders of Podcast Movement in 2017 because I heard it was going to be in Los Angeles and I was just like, hey, I live in Los Angeles, I have this newsletter, I have friends in the podcast space here, I would love to advertise for this event in my newsletter in exchange for a ticket.

Would you be open to that? And they said yes, and I got to go to Podcast Movement and that was huge because I met people there that I'm still in touch with to this day. I met people there that have employed me.

Deanna: Yeah, that is a very smart way of networking. I went through the phase where I was at the time, hosting and editing that music podcast that I mentioned and then I had been tagged in a Facebook post by someone I was working with because I was like managing a podcast network for a hot minute and they tagged me in this post that one of their friends was hiring an editor.

So what ended up happening completely by accident was I just ended up working on a bunch of music podcasts, which makes sense because of my music industry background. Those were just the people I happen to know and have connections with. So it was like, I was in this whole different area of the podcasting world that like regular people didn't know about.

Cause for the most part, yeah, unless it's like Song Exploder or Switched on Pop, really a lot of the music podcasts are very specific. I was working with a lot of guys who are into metal music. I mean, I still work with a lot of them, but it kind of just grew from there because then they would have a friend who wanted to start a podcast too, and they would tell them about me.

And then I was like, oh no, this is a business. What do I do?

Arielle: Oops, I started a business.

Deanna: Literally, that is what happened to me. And I feel like that happens with a lot of people in podcasting. It sounds like for both of us, we kind of had to carve our own path, and maybe not the most direct way, in order to just like, get into podcasting and start working with bigger companies, because now I work on shows that are on iHeart and the Daily Beast. So it just kind of snowballs. It seems once you get into podcasts, it's like, oh, we can't stop now.

Was it sort of that way for you as well?

Arielle: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's sort of all falls into place. And at first when I told my mom I wanted to work in podcasting, she's always sort of been an advocate for like, work for legacy corporations, work for, you know, industries that have been established for a long time.

And I was like, no, I really want to work in podcasting. This is what I want. And she was like, okay, but like, what's the future there? And I was like, I don't know. But I want to make it happen.

Deanna: Yeah, do you find that it's kind of scary, almost, not knowing what's next? Because for me, I just try to focus on what is happening now, especially with editing, because I feel like editing is one of those things that can translate into other things. Like I could probably go edit audio books, for instance, if I really needed to. I would love to just have podcasts exist forever, but it is a little scary when you're working with something that is sort of still as new as podcasting.

I know it's been around for a while, but in the sense of how it is around now It's only really been Honestly since serial started so like what ten years in this industry and it's had its ups and downs for sure but how do you feel about like the state of the podcast industry going forward?

Arielle: I was very confident until this year, but this year there have been a lot of layoffs and companies shutting down and just general bad stuff going on with the bigger companies. And that has definitely been demoralizing and sad and I feel awful for those companies and for the founders and for the individual employees who have been laid off.

I think when it comes to the independent creators though, they continue to create and they continue to find advertisers and they continue to hire freelancers or even hire full time people to help with the production workflows of their shows. So I am definitely encouraged by that. I'm also encouraged by advertisers who are still spending millions of dollars the larger advertisers who are spending millions of dollars every month, you know, BetterHelp, HelloFresh, are spending millions of dollars every month on podcast advertising, and I think the idea is that that trickles down.

Or at least that creates an impression that podcasting is doing well and I think that's a really important part of how podcasting continues to do well is if the average listener who has no idea about the inner workings of the podcast space hears an ad for BetterHelp, HelloFresh, Instacart, whatever, on a podcast that they listen to, they're thinking, oh, the state of the podcast industry is strong and that's it.

That ultimately does let other creators try things out. And what I mean by other creators is independent creators try things out and maybe find a niche audience and then find niche advertisers that can help sustain that production and serve that audience. So I do still, like, even though right now this is mid 2023, I feel like on the whole, there have been some bad headlines.

I do still feel confident about the state of podcasting going forward. And I do still think that there are people out there who want to listen to podcasts for the sake of listening to podcasts. Not necessarily for the sake of watching video that goes alongside a podcast.

I think there are still so many people who want to go to Apple Podcasts, who want to go to Spotify, and who want to just listen to a podcast. And I'm encouraged by that.

Deanna: Same. And I feel like with everything that happened, especially during COVID, you know, a lot of companies were like, “Oh, hey, all these celebrities want to start podcasts now.”And who knows if we will see more of those come back, or sort of have this mini revival, so to speak, because of the strikes that are going on currently. But I feel like there was this huge wave of celebrity podcasts because they didn't have any other work like a lot of people during COVID. And the companies just kind of jumped the gun on a few things a little too early.

And then they were like, “oh, these people are not delivering what they said they were going to deliver.” Especially now that some of them have other things to do, frankly, but I think a lot of it will sort of Have this resurgence for like you were saying those independent creators that aren't going after these millions upon millions of dollars in deals from Spotify or iHeartRadio or whoever honestly whoever can still afford that to be frank, but I feel like right like you were saying for freelancers we're kind of in a good place because personally I have had so many things come my way, especially in the last couple years.

It was surprising to me because I was like, oh. People are at home and they want stuff to listen to still. And they're not going to be able to really get a ton of new TV, a ton of new movies. Sure, those things did still come out, but it was a much, much slower trickle than usual. And I feel on the advertising front, like you were saying too, it's just some creators have to make different types of deals, not everything has to be based on CPM, sometimes you can get flat rate deals from smaller local companies, depending on what your podcast is about, and I think that is very much still alive and well, thankfully, and a lot of my concern comes from, okay, I had started off in a very specific niche that is kind of, I don't want to say notorious, but it's pretty well known within those circles that music people just aren't going to pay the same as a company would, and for the most part, I am working with individuals, not companies.

I do have, I want to say three or four companies that I do work for. And It's just one of those things where those people definitely aren't looking at things like AIR rates. They probably don't even know the AIR rates exist. So a lot of that too is just like, it has to fall on freelancers to sort of set those prices and be confident in setting those prices and saying no to things, which is something I am terrible at.

I am literally the worst at saying no. I have lost track of how many podcasts I work on because of this. So how do you feel about sort of the the state of the freelance part in particular? I know you briefly touched on it, but do you feel like there is going to, at some point, be a better way for freelancers in podcasting specifically to sort of come up with this baseline and actually have people respect that, I guess.

Arielle: It's a really good question because you're right that so many people come to podcasting from different industries, both creators and both the hosts and the producers that often get hired to help on the production. And because of that, like you said, if they're coming from a music background, often they want to pay music rates or there's expectations that are in line with how the music industry.

I think what's important is for freelancers to be aware of all the resources that are meant to serve them, like Association of Independents in Radio (AIR), the Podcast Academy, places like that that do have fair rate guides in their arsenal or are at least having these conversations so that you have the confidence to bring back to your employer or to the person who is contracting you and say, “Hey, this is actually what you should be paying me based on fair rate guides.”

If you don't want to, it's not illegal, but it's not cool and I'll move on because I can, because I have the leverage to move on.

Deanna: Yeah. And a lot of it for me has just been sort of slowly like moving to the next step, and it's like, okay, as either shows drop off, like they end, or I'm just not working on them anymore, then the next time someone contacts me, I'm like, okay, I will bump up the rate, and so far that has worked fairly well for me, and a lot of it does have to do with the fact that I've branched out what types of podcasts that I'm working on, so now I work on music podcasts, political podcasts, I have some finance leaning podcasts.

I work on a podcast that is entirely about habits and taking care of yourself. So I feel like the more I have been able to branch out and sort of diversify what types of podcasts I've I'm working on that has given me a lot of insight into these are the people who just aren't necessarily in the podcast industry, but they want to host podcasts and they don't want to handle any of the back end or the production.

They just want someone who can do all of that for them. And I've noticed that as I am able to accommodate more things for my clients, then I can also raise my rates as well, which I think is another thing that's hard for freelancers in general, like for instance, I had a client I had started working with.

A few years ago, and he just kind of dropped off, stopped doing content. And then when he hit me up again a couple years later, I was like, yeah, I am still willing to work with you, but my rate is not what it was two years ago. So as long as you're good with that, then, you know, we can, we can get this rolling again.

Arielle: And was he?

Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully.

Arielle: Yeah, I think people understand when it comes to Inflation is, is usually something that people understand when it comes to raising rates. Other than that, I think the only way that I've been successful in raising my rates is saying, we are just working with so many people, we can be picky.

Deanna: Yeah, I think I have finally hit that point too, where I'm like, I actually do need to start saying no to people so I can still have a life.

Arielle: And you need to be able to pay yourself an amount that makes sense for the work that you're doing. And when you have enough clients, you don't have to undersell yourself. Or when you have clients knocking down your doors, you don't have to undersell yourself. And then you can actually. Spend the time working on projects that you actually want to work on.

Deanna: Yeah, that has been a big learning experience for me, because I didn't know anything when I started. And, you know, when my friend asked me to host a podcast, it was just like for fun, for his music website, like I was not making any money. I was just doing it as a side thing and I had like a full time job at the time and then I started getting paid to edit other people's podcasts and I was like, “oh, okay.”

But at first I was just taking whatever I was offered and then I was like, “oh, these aren't correct numbers,” you know, so then I would raise my rates here and there. Like, you know, $5 an hour every, six to 12 months or something. Cause you can't make like a $20 an hour jump all of a sudden and expect them to be like, “Yeah, cool. That's fine.” So it was one of those things where I was like going in increments and I'm definitely getting a little better at it and then you know as a freelancer I also have the whole business end of it too that I was like, okay, I have to do invoices.

I have to make sure I am taking care of any intake contract kind of stuff that I was really bad at at the start. I've been getting better at that recently too. And I'm just like, okay, get all of the billing information before doing any work.

Arielle: The organizational part of it is very hard.

Deanna: Yeah, so I want to end this with, what has the impact of podcasts been on your life in particular? Because I know it completely changed mine, like I was saying earlier. I was leaning more towards the music business side of things like management booking whatever I was kind of looking for stuff in that realm and then I was like Oh, just kidding Turns out I do live in logic and pro tools because I actually really like editing podcasts, which is entirely different from You know, being in those two programs all the time for music per se, so it just kind of is something that I personally fell into and completely changed my life and whether or not freelancing was the right move.

Remains to be determined, but it's something that I have, at times, really enjoyed the challenge, really have not at some points, but for you, how did podcasts ultimately impact your life, career, and so on?

Arielle: Podcasts are my life now. Podcasts are my, let me make a really definitive statement: I don't know where I would be professionally if I had never discovered listening to podcasts, being in the podcast space professionally, it is what I do. I love it. I wake up every day and I'm excited by the prospect of sitting in front of my desk, doing podcast related things, posting advice for podcasters, meeting with creators, meeting with people who are coding tools that help creators.

I am just constantly excited by that. And I don't know what I would do otherwise. I sometimes think, I do a thought experiment, you know, if podcasting never existed, what would I do? And I think the reason I like podcasting is because, you know, it's 20 years old, the medium of podcasting just turned 20 earlier this year, but it is, it still feels new in the sense that the rules are being written, and we are constantly discovering new ways to grow shows and we're figuring out what is trending and with that in mind I think I'm just excited by the newness of it. So I do think that if I were to work in something else, I would have to work in something new, so maybe solar energy or renewables or you know, something that is new, something that is emerging.

But I truly don't know where I'd be without audio.

I love listening. I love connecting with creators. I love all of it So just really grateful that I exist in a time where podcasts exist

Deanna: Very relatable and same here I do not know what I would be doing if I was not editing podcasts right now. And I try very hard to not really think about that. But Arielle, thank you so much for joining me and I just want to give a quick shout out to your newsletter Earbuds Podcast Collective, where you recommend a ton of shows.

You also have Podcast Plunge, so hopefully the readers of the newsletter go check those out as well if they haven't already. I feel like a lot of my readers have already heard of you, so thank you for everything you are doing in the podcast world and with discoverability, which is so hard in the apps, we need to rely on other people to introduce us to new shows.

Arielle: Thank you so much for having me.

Be sure to check out Earbuds Podcast Collective and Podcast Plunge!

If you would like more conversations like this in the newsletter, please hit reply and let me know!